sardaukar etymology herbertesque

[bockspur]

Sardaukar is most likely a indo-iranic construct along the lines of
Sarkar,
SarVan,SarHang, etc ( sarkar-head of task, sarvan- head of van{military
unit ~100/company}, sarhang- head of hang{mil unit ~ regiment}.
Which begs the question, "just what is a Daukar?"
Well if we make the assumption that 'kar'- task then we ave reduced the
problem to what is "dau"? .
'Dau'- is an alternate spelling for dhow which is a small carrack sized
vessel
but sar dau kar doesn't mean head of ship's task that would be sar kar
dau. dhou is an object and can not be used to modify kar.
'Dau' - is also sometimes used as an alternate spelling of the the word
"Dou" which means two and can be used to modify 'kar"; i.e. dou kar -
double task. if some one says the have "dou kar" it means to hold two
positions/jobs. Thus sar dou kar could mean 'head of two task'.
Which might make some sense in a dune universe populated with
sardaukar who hold both military and civilian positions. i.e. Bashars
and Caids.
This is of course all speculative unless someone had the foresight to
ask herbert
what the heck the word meant when he was still alive.
If anyone else has any insight on indo-iranic words that transliterate
as "DAU"
, i would greatly appreciate the post. Thank you in advance, i've got
to get back to studying ciao, -john.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Well there is a Sardaukar investment company being prosecuted by the
Federal government, beyond that Google has no other non-Dune non-User
name referances.

The word does not seem to be one of Arabic origin, so an Indo-Iranian
origin would be likely. Herbert seems to have modeled the Empire of
Dune after something along the lines of Rome or the Parthians. The
Parthians were Indo-Iranian.

Herbert does not seem to be very interested in Rome. Not to the extent
of say Foundation which is all based on Asimov's reading of The Rise
and Fall of the Roman Empire.

[bockspur]

Herbert universe seems to be based on a fusion of english fuedalism and
ottoman
court structure. i.e. the padishah emperor does not have unlimited
power and his will can be checked by a united landsraad ( just like the
early english parliment which raised the armies of oliver cromwell to
smash an unpopular king). On the other hand, the padishah emperor has
the services of his sardaukar legions which seem very similar to
ottoman janisary which had a dual military/civilan role and quasi
mystical religion (some form of sufism). The non-english vocabulary
seems to also be a combination of what you would find at an ottoman
court; arabic, medieval farsi, hindi/urdu and what you you find at the
court of an english king; french (richese, melenge). the only roman
influence i recall is the name of the world IX >>ix.

Mogul india would be a better political match to the dune-verse, it had
a leader called padishah emperor who had to rely on the the goodwill
of his commandors. he came to power much like william the conqueror;
leading several semi-autonomous armies into india and therefore had the
same issues with respect to lack of centralisation and independent
power bases in his realm.Who knows given enough time the indians may
have come to stumble upon the idea of a parliment as a solution.
But , mugal india did not have a corp of slave soldiers like the
janisary and it lacked anything like a guild structure which was very
apparent in both english and turkish midievil society.

[r***@hotmail.com]

Well Cromwell is not right because he was of the lower house of
Parliament, representing the middle class. Charles I had the support
of the lords. But that is a detail.

The workings of the Padishah system certainly has European like flavour
because of the houses, but the power of the Padishah over all via
force, and the willingness to use it, makes them little more than
Barons and the system would seem more like the Turkish system.

But then again ancient Rome has an a similiar strucutre, with wealthy
landed families constatuting an elite, and I would imagine any system
of absolutism requires a group of lords or barons, or will have it.
Russia under Ivan moved against the lords who held much of the power
and the political system rose from late Romanian. I would have to look
this up but I imagine the Byzantines had a system of nobel families as
well.

[iakovos]

Post by r***@hotmail.com
The workings of the Padishah system certainly has European like flavour
because of the houses, but the power of the Padishah over all via
force, and the willingness to use it, makes them little more than
Barons and the system would seem more like the Turkish system.
But then again ancient Rome has an a similiar strucutre, with wealthy
landed families constatuting an elite, and I would imagine any system
of absolutism requires a group of lords or barons, or will have it.
Russia under Ivan moved against the lords who held much of the power
and the political system rose from late Romanian. I would have to look
this up but I imagine the Byzantines had a system of nobel families as
well.

Having already discussed this with an American friend, I always thought that
the political system implemented on the Dune universe was a mixture of the
city-states of antiquity (Athens, Sparta etc.) plus the Empire influence of
the Roman Empire.
So city-states actually running as planet-states and the Emperor of Rome
being the Padishah Emperor in Dune.
Still, this thought never really explained the connection between the
planets and the emperor, plus the several Guilds - trade associations that
dominated the Dune Universe.
As the discussion moved on, we both realized that it was actually a mock-up
of the American political system, implemented on a wiser and grander scale.
So POTUS (President of the United States) is the Emperor with actual
political power and will, each planet/house is a different state,
autonomous, with its own political figures, the guilds are parts of a wider
federation or confederation among planets and so on.
I do believe that FH had figured out somehow that this was the direction he
wanted to go. The American political system explains alot of the
categorization of FH's universe.

That's just my two cents.

Cheers,
Iakovos:)

[bockspur]

Then what of the evolution of the dune-verse? Is that what herbert felt
was in store for america? An eternal dictatorship with feminist
overtones and an eventual conquest by external forces bent on revenge
against a corporation(bene Tleilax)?
By the way did anyone else find the term 'fish speaker' a bit crude for
someone of the caliber of Herbert? I'm sure he could of used a somewhat
more cryptic term for the god emperor's all female soldier corp. Thank
godness he avoided the term " " eater.

[Wild Monkshood]

Post by bockspur
Then what of the evolution of the dune-verse? Is that what herbert felt
was in store for america? An eternal dictatorship with feminist
overtones and an eventual conquest by external forces bent on revenge
against a corporation(bene Tleilax)?
By the way did anyone else find the term 'fish speaker' a bit crude for
someone of the caliber of Herbert? I'm sure he could of used a somewhat
more cryptic term for the god emperor's all female soldier corp. Thank
godness he avoided the term " " eater.

Actually it showed Herbert's ability to make his Duniverse real. How
they became know as fish speakers is explained and has a real world feel
to it as to how things progress....

Wild Monkshood

[r***@hotmail.com]

I liked Fish Speaker, after all the arabic names and all it was a nice
clean clear name, that made no sense at all really. It was good fun.

[bockspur]

"What did my Fish Speakers say?"--Leto II

"They said you're God. Why do you call them Fish Speakers?"--Duncan
Idaho

"An old conceit. The first priestesses spoke to fish in their dreams.
They learned valuable things that way."--Leto II

"How do you know?"--Duncan Idaho

"I am those women...and everything that came before and after
them."--Leto II

i assume the first preistess were pre-space terrans from the beginning
of agricultural era. I have not seen any historical basis for herbert's
assertion so i must conclude it's merely a cover for another naming
scheme.
I have to admit i enjoyed azimov's nightfall because everything was in
the vernacular, no warp this or hyper that. But for dune-verse i think
the exotic names give you a sense of temporal displacement; you can
better appreciate the distance in time you have with the story's
action. Something like reading the bible and wondering what the heck
is a talent or a shekel. Azimov was a great scifi author, Herbert was a
great author: period.