Relationship between Leto & Ghanima?

[Yousuf Khan]

I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?

In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
rid of him, or she really digs him?

Yousuf Khan

[Paula Drennan]

Well, considering that they are pre-born and have played the "parents" game,
their relationship would have some of that over/undertone. The BG also
wanted to pursue that mating to save the bloodline. Perhaps they were pushed
in that direction, but it was not put in the book.
--
Paula Drennan
In Memory of, Tenzing the Kitty, May 4 - August 1, 2003
He lost his short battle for life, and is now in peace.
"Yousuf Khan" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
: I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
: definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
: than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
: from the books too?
:
: In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
: thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
: But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
: bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
: rid of him, or she really digs him?
:
: Yousuf Khan

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by Paula Drennan
Well, considering that they are pre-born and have played the "parents" game,
their relationship would have some of that over/undertone.

What do you mean? That because they share the parents' memories, they share
that attraction to each other too?

Post by Paula Drennan
The BG also
wanted to pursue that mating to save the bloodline. Perhaps they were pushed
in that direction, but it was not put in the book.

Did the Bene Gesserit pursue the "save the bloodlines" in such a limited
context (i.e. within a single house), or rather did they mean they wanted
the bloodlines of the various houses the stay mixed with each other. Like
for example that Lady Jessica's father was Count Harkonnen.

Also Count Harkonnen seemed a bit gay to me ("Oh what a lovely boy!"), was
that also implied in the books? So obviously the fathering had to be done
with some turkey basters, I'm sure. :-)

Yousuf Khan

[Paula Drennan]

:
: What do you mean? That because they share the parents' memories, they
share
: that attraction to each other too?
:
As children their love is unconditional, and when being their parents their
love may have been colored by their parents' love for one another.

: Did the Bene Gesserit pursue the "save the bloodlines" in such a limited
: context (i.e. within a single house), or rather did they mean they wanted
: the bloodlines of the various houses the stay mixed with each other. Like
: for example that Lady Jessica's father was Count Harkonnen.

Yes, the BG would have pursued it there, the strongest bloodline is Ghani
and Leto II. They are both Atredes and Harkonnen. There is a daughter by the
Lady Margot Fenring and Feyd Rautha, but it is a much weaker genetic link to
the Kwizats Hadderach, and there would be the need for more breeding to
create another.

:
: Also Count Harkonnen seemed a bit gay to me ("Oh what a lovely boy!"), was
: that also implied in the books? So obviously the fathering had to be done
: with some turkey basters, I'm sure. :-)
:

That would be impossible. It is Abomination to create a child without the
act of "love." If you read the prequels, you find that RM Gaius Helen Mohiam
is Jessica's mother, and the Baron is her father. RM Mohiam had another
child by the Baron, but it was deformed and died soon after birth. (this is
from the prequels). the Encyclopedia mentions that Mohiam being raped by the
baron, and during this rape she infected him with the illness that caused
him to get fat and weak. The prequels go into much more detail about that.
Yes the Baron is gay, and the BG convinced him it was in his best interest
to cooperate with them in the creation of a child.

[Wild Monkshood]

Post by Yousuf Khan
I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?

No, I never saw their relationship as incestuous. The language does
seem to point in that direction, but then you must remember that they
share a bond beyond that of even ordinary twins. Quite simply, there has
never been a pair like this, ever. I think that had FH wanted you to
believe that they were more intimate than we see, I don't think it would
have been uncertain. In Ch:D he certainly has no qualms about a sexual
seduction of a child by a caretaker who is much older.

Wild Monkshood

Post by Yousuf Khan
In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
rid of him, or she really digs him?
Yousuf Khan

[teh0mega]

Post by Wild Monkshood

Post by Yousuf Khan
I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?

No, I never saw their relationship as incestuous. The language does
seem to point in that direction, but then you must remember that they
share a bond beyond that of even ordinary twins. Quite simply, there has
never been a pair like this, ever. I think that had FH wanted you to
believe that they were more intimate than we see, I don't think it would
have been uncertain. In Ch:D he certainly has no qualms about a sexual
seduction of a child by a caretaker who is much older.
Wild Monkshood

Post by Yousuf Khan
In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
rid of him, or she really digs him?
Yousuf Khan

Having not read much of CoD, I always had the thought that Leto II and
Ghanima always had thoughts in their mind that it could happen, but never
really acted on them. It seemed like those kind of thoughs mostly happened
when they played the "Parents" game, though.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by teh0mega
Having not read much of CoD, I always had the thought that Leto II and
Ghanima always had thoughts in their mind that it could happen, but never
really acted on them. It seemed like those kind of thoughs mostly happened
when they played the "Parents" game, though.

What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show (or
if it did, I missed it).

Yousuf Khan

[Paula Drennan]

the "Parents" game is where Leto allows Paul's memory essence to take over
and Ghani allows for Chani to take over, they used this to gain their
parents' insight into their situations. It was a dangerous game, one that
could have led them down the path to aboination.
--
Paula Drennan
In Memory of, Tenzing the Kitty, May 4 - August 1, 2003
He lost his short battle for life, and is now in peace.
"Yousuf Khan" <***@GHIhotmailJKL.com> wrote in message news:H69Kb.2571$***@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
: "teh0mega" <don'***@kthx.com> wrote in message
: news:wYGdnQm7TsyXVWWiRVn-***@comcast.com...
: > Having not read much of CoD, I always had the thought that Leto II and
: > Ghanima always had thoughts in their mind that it could happen, but
never
: > really acted on them. It seemed like those kind of thoughs mostly
happened
: > when they played the "Parents" game, though.
:
: What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
: miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show (or
: if it did, I missed it).
:
: Yousuf Khan
:
:

[June Bugge]

Post by Yousuf Khan
What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show (or
if it did, I missed it).

You're being misled, Yousuf.

While it's obvious to *me* what you're really asking - "I don't read books
as a rule, but I would if they contained some porny bits" - the other
replyees are too strait-laced to give you the answer you so desperately
want.

Yes - the books in question are absolutely filled to the brim with sordid,
straight-down-the-middle, degenerate filth. Orgies; gay-sex; paedophilia;
sadomasochism; intergenerational; rape; 'bagpiping' . . . . . . believe me,
if you're looking for it, you'll find it in these 'sexplosive' novels.

You won't be disappointed, Y-man. By the time you've read them all, I can
guarantee you'll have lost around 40% of your body-weight; encountered the
true meaning of "penile friction burning"; and developed quite a variety of
*serious* sight-related problems.

Get that "Do Not Disturb" sign printed NOW . . . . and stock up on
multivitamins.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by June Bugge

Post by Yousuf Khan
What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show (or
if it did, I missed it).

You're being misled, Yousuf.
While it's obvious to *me* what you're really asking - "I don't read books
as a rule, but I would if they contained some porny bits" - the other
replyees are too strait-laced to give you the answer you so desperately
want.

Actually, no, you're only partly right. I don't read books as a general
rule, true. But I wouldn't read them even if they had "porny bits", either.
Not enough time, and just too much work for my brain, so I'd rather watch
the movie. :-)

Although occasionally I've read a few books just for pure entertainment and
found them thoroughly enjoyable, my primary book reading activities come
from the remote control of a DVD player. The same is true of the Lord of The
Rings and Harry Potter series for me.

But I do like to get more detailed insights about the stuff I've seen if I'm
interested enough in it, but I've never been interested enough to read a
book about it, usually. But seeing as there are likely to be lots of fans of
the books in these newsgroups, why not pick their brains about it? Fills in
the details I may have missed.

Yousuf Khan

[JanRachel]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by June Bugge

Post by Yousuf Khan
What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show

(or

Post by June Bugge

Post by Yousuf Khan
if it did, I missed it).

You're being misled, Yousuf.
While it's obvious to *me* what you're really asking - "I don't read books
as a rule, but I would if they contained some porny bits" - the other
replyees are too strait-laced to give you the answer you so desperately
want.

Actually, no, you're only partly right. I don't read books as a general
rule, true. But I wouldn't read them even if they had "porny bits", either.
Not enough time, and just too much work for my brain, so I'd rather watch
the movie. :-)
Although occasionally I've read a few books just for pure entertainment and
found them thoroughly enjoyable, my primary book reading activities come
from the remote control of a DVD player. The same is true of the Lord of The
Rings and Harry Potter series for me.
But I do like to get more detailed insights about the stuff I've seen if I'm
interested enough in it, but I've never been interested enough to read a
book about it, usually. But seeing as there are likely to be lots of fans of
the books in these newsgroups, why not pick their brains about it? Fills in
the details I may have missed.
Yousuf Khan

OK, Yousuf..

In the book (Children of Dune) there are some mentionings of Leto and
Ghanima playing the Parents game.
It is like in the Mini-series when the Baron temporarily takes over Alia.
The main reason ( Leto is usually the one who wants to play the "game") is
to explore the memories of their parents ( Paul) to find a way out of the
turmoil the world got into because Paul took the role of messiah (Leto wants
to explore all options before he decides to go for the Golden Path) . Since
they do play this "game" together there is some mentioning of them embracing
each other, but no real "in depth" passion, other than what you might expect
from a twin like them.

So the Parents Game is no more than Leto and Ghanima playing (re-living)
their parents memories.

My 2 cents

Bassie

[June Bugge]

Post by JanRachel
they do play this "game" together there is some mentioning of them embracing
each other, but no real "in depth" passion, other than what you might expect
from a twin like them.

What Jan doesn't say, Yousuf, is that after the event mentioned above, they
indulge in a game of 'wheelbarrow'.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by JanRachel

Post by JanRachel
they do play this "game" together there is some mentioning of them

embracing

Post by JanRachel
each other, but no real "in depth" passion, other than what you might

expect

Post by JanRachel
from a twin like them.

What Jan doesn't say, Yousuf, is that after the event mentioned above, they
indulge in a game of 'wheelbarrow'.

Not a clue what that means.

Yousuf Khan

[June Bugge]

Post by Yousuf Khan
Not a clue what that means.

. . . . It gets worse. Over the next 12 pages, they get into a twisted,
heavy session of "stinky finger".

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by June Bugge
What Jan doesn't say, Yousuf, is that after the event mentioned above,

they

Post by June Bugge
indulge in a game of 'wheelbarrow'.

Not a clue what that means.

Ah, now that I've gone Googling, I understand now. Interesting that they'd
leave these details out of the miniseries. :-)

Yousuf Khan

[Chris Casey]

I don't recall any sexuality during the parents game in the book either.

sorry Yousuf

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by June Bugge

Post by Yousuf Khan
What exactly was this "Parents" game? My knowledge of CoD is from the
miniseries, and I don't think it mentioned this game much in that show

(or

Post by June Bugge

Post by Yousuf Khan
if it did, I missed it).

You're being misled, Yousuf.
While it's obvious to *me* what you're really asking - "I don't read

books

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by June Bugge
as a rule, but I would if they contained some porny bits" - the other
replyees are too strait-laced to give you the answer you so desperately
want.

Actually, no, you're only partly right. I don't read books as a general
rule, true. But I wouldn't read them even if they had "porny bits",

either.

Post by Yousuf Khan
Not enough time, and just too much work for my brain, so I'd rather watch
the movie. :-)
Although occasionally I've read a few books just for pure entertainment

and

Post by Yousuf Khan
found them thoroughly enjoyable, my primary book reading activities come
from the remote control of a DVD player. The same is true of the Lord of

The

Post by Yousuf Khan
Rings and Harry Potter series for me.
But I do like to get more detailed insights about the stuff I've seen if

I'm

Post by Yousuf Khan
interested enough in it, but I've never been interested enough to read a
book about it, usually. But seeing as there are likely to be lots of

fans

Post by Yousuf Khan
of

Post by Yousuf Khan
the books in these newsgroups, why not pick their brains about it? Fills

in

Post by Yousuf Khan
the details I may have missed.
Yousuf Khan

OK, Yousuf..
In the book (Children of Dune) there are some mentionings of Leto and
Ghanima playing the Parents game.
It is like in the Mini-series when the Baron temporarily takes over Alia.
The main reason ( Leto is usually the one who wants to play the "game") is
to explore the memories of their parents ( Paul) to find a way out of the
turmoil the world got into because Paul took the role of messiah (Leto wants
to explore all options before he decides to go for the Golden Path) . Since
they do play this "game" together there is some mentioning of them embracing
each other, but no real "in depth" passion, other than what you might expect
from a twin like them.
So the Parents Game is no more than Leto and Ghanima playing (re-living)
their parents memories.
My 2 cents
Bassie

[June Bugge]

Post by Chris Casey
I don't recall any sexuality during the parents game in the book either.
sorry Yousuf

Don't listen to him, Y. It's filthy. You'll love it. You'll never need those
"photography" magazines again.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by June Bugge

Post by Chris Casey
I don't recall any sexuality during the parents game in the book either.
sorry Yousuf

Don't listen to him, Y. It's filthy. You'll love it. You'll never need those
"photography" magazines again.

I get the feeling you're pulling some appendages (whichever appendages you
like). :-)

Yousuf Khan

[Adam]

<snip>

Post by June Bugge
Yes - the books in question are absolutely filled to the brim with sordid,
straight-down-the-middle, degenerate filth. Orgies; gay-sex; paedophilia;
sadomasochism; intergenerational; rape; 'bagpiping' . . . . . . >

Maybe I don't get out enough, but WTF is Bagpiping ?

[June Bugge]

Post by Adam
Maybe I don't get out enough, but WTF is Bagpiping ?

You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

[Christopher Browne]

Post by Adam
<snip>

Post by June Bugge
Yes - the books in question are absolutely filled to the brim with sordid,
straight-down-the-middle, degenerate filth. Orgies; gay-sex; paedophilia;
sadomasochism; intergenerational; rape; 'bagpiping' . . . . . . >

Maybe I don't get out enough, but WTF is Bagpiping ?

No doubt a Google for "bagpiping sexual" would find something.
Somehow I can't see it being more bizarre than the other items
mentioned...

[June Bugge]

Post by Christopher Browne
No doubt a Google for "bagpiping sexual" would find something.

Ah-ha . . . . bet you do a *lot* of "Google searching" - eh, Chris? Nudge
Nudge Wink Wink . . . Say No MORE!

[Wild Monkshood]

Post by teh0mega

Post by Wild Monkshood

Post by Yousuf Khan
I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?

No, I never saw their relationship as incestuous. The language does
seem to point in that direction, but then you must remember that they
share a bond beyond that of even ordinary twins. Quite simply, there has
never been a pair like this, ever. I think that had FH wanted you to
believe that they were more intimate than we see, I don't think it would
have been uncertain. In Ch:D he certainly has no qualms about a sexual
seduction of a child by a caretaker who is much older.
Wild Monkshood

Post by Yousuf Khan
In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
rid of him, or she really digs him?
Yousuf Khan

Having not read much of CoD, I always had the thought that Leto II and
Ghanima always had thoughts in their mind that it could happen, but never
really acted on them. It seemed like those kind of thoughs mostly happened
when they played the "Parents" game, though.

True, I think. And remember his explanation to Farad'n when he explains
that he will be marrying his sister. The part about how they will be back to
back and that he should remember that as he is face to face with her.

Wild Monkshood

[Christopher Browne]

Post by Yousuf Khan
I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?

Certainly they _were_ something a tad different from usual brother and
sister; they were, after all, "Pre Born," and knew, from ancestral
memories, all about sex at rather precocious ages.

In the novel, I also recall there being a B.G. "plot" whereby they
wanted to continue their breeding plans through having our young
protaganists "get together" despite the obviously incestuous
connotation.

Put those together, and it would be remarkable for there not to be
something a "tad naughty" implied in the miniseries...

[Chris]

Post by Yousuf Khan
I recently finished watching the Children of Doom miniseries. I got a
definite feeling that brother & sister, Leto II & Ghanima, were more
than just brother & sister? Was this the impression that people get
from the books too?
In the end, when Ghanima decides not to marry Prince Farad'n, I
thought it was because she still has feelings for her brother Leto.
But she also said, that she won't marry him because she wants love to
bloom between them. So what's the right answer? She's trying to get
rid of him, or she really digs him?
Yousuf Khan

Actually I think that they both discounted it. Ghanima made the
statement that she would never bear him children and Leto said he
would never consider it. They only discussed it as they were going
over what they though the BGs were thinking.

They were the same person for the most part so their level of intamacy
would be profound.

[Yousuf Khan]

Post by Chris
Actually I think that they both discounted it. Ghanima made the
statement that she would never bear him children and Leto said he
would never consider it. They only discussed it as they were going
over what they though the BGs were thinking.
They were the same person for the most part so their level of intamacy
would be profound.

Now the original Leto II, who was killed as a baby in Dune, he didn't have a
twin of any kind, so presumably he would've gone through all of these
mindgames alone by himself, if he had lived. Was it implied that Leto II
rev. b was a reincarnation of Leto II rev. a?

Yousuf Khan

[Von Bailey]

Post by Yousuf Khan

Post by Chris
Actually I think that they both discounted it. Ghanima made the
statement that she would never bear him children and Leto said he
would never consider it. They only discussed it as they were going
over what they though the BGs were thinking.
They were the same person for the most part so their level of intamacy
would be profound.

Now the original Leto II, who was killed as a baby in Dune, he didn't have a
twin of any kind, so presumably he would've gone through all of these
mindgames alone by himself, if he had lived. Was it implied that Leto II
rev. b was a reincarnation of Leto II rev. a?

IIRC, the first preganancy for the first Leto was not the same as the
second. Chani had to take very large doses of spice in order to even
get pregnant with the twins and it undoubtably had an affect on the
babies being born. Given that the first pregnancy was a normal Fremen
one and the second was 'enhanced' through artificial mean (i.e. spice)
it's reasonable to assume that there would be some difference between
the two.

Of course that wasn't covered in the TV series so you wouldn't know
that.

von